Here's the foundation of it, taught by Joseph Smith:
Theogeny
Quotes on the progression of Gods
“He [Lorenzo Snow] told me that he heard Joseph Smith tell a man once that he would become a god and reign in glory, but that before that he would have to be crucified as Christ was. That man is still living.” (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889, special collections, University of Utah Library)
“Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world became the eternal God of that world. he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many” (Wilford Woodruff, Jan. 30, 1841, "Book of Revelations," 3-4)
“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Words of Joseph Smith <27 August 1843> page 245)
“Jesus spake in this wise, I do as my Father before me did. [John 5:19] Well, what did the father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to laid down his life and to take it up again.” (Words of Joseph Smith <7 April 1844> page 362)
thanks for helping to better understand all the integral parts to this teaching!
like another poster mentioned, i too have the book but not the 2023 edition, i think i recall u mentioning that there was a supplemental which u had prepared with the latest material for the older edition….. is/was that so?
in a talk i read or heard sometime ago, Nibley made a statement on this teaching, and he well could of made others i’m ignorant of……but it sure led me to believe that he was quite open to the doctrine being legitimate…..would u happen to have any such Nibley quotes on the teaching?
I'm glad the podcast was helpful. I worried that I didn't say things PC enough. I try not to overstate any detail when I write, but sometimes when I speak on a podcast, I'm not quite as careful and though I stand by the strong statements, I normally would try to tone them down a bit so as not to stress anyone who is maybe newer in the gospel and just happened upon my channel.
I addressed the 2023 comment above.
I know the hospice worker who worked with Hugh Nibley. As I recall, he acknowledged to the hospice worker that he believed in AG teachings but still stuck "to the good ship, Zion." The hospice worker is one of my best friends so I trust his account, but don't recall specifics.
I had an acquaintance make a similar statement about another leading LDS scholar who believed in AG teachings but was unwilling to risk his membership and/or scholarship status by saying so but I have not verified that (although I'm personally familiar with the individual) because I have not wanted to put him in an uncomfortable position.
found this in a Sunstone article….it includes the account i had heard before……
Nibley’s son-in-law and biographer Boyd Petersen spoke of this in a 2013 interview. When asked whether Nibley may have privately believed in Adam-God teachings, Petersen replied,
I never heard him say, “I believe in the Adam-God doctrine” . . . I thought, “Why hasn’t he addressed that issue [Adam-God]?” And so I asked him . . . and he said, “Oh, I never think about that.” And he just didn’t want to talk about it, he said, “Well, let me revise that: I don’t talk about that.” . . . in several of his Brigham Young writings [he said] that he felt like Brigham Young was a better theologian than he’s been given credit for. So . . . my gut feeling is that he had very strong sympathies for that theology.
This is a very interesting take on what he said. Personally, I look at it like this: (1) teaching Adam-God teachings in the church gets you in big trouble (I've known several people who can personally testify of this). (2) Those who look into church history carefully absolutely know that this was taught as doctrine, including in the temples. (3) those who study ancient Christianity cannot help but to see parallels to Adam-God teachings in certain texts. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that Hugh Nibley didn't dive into this topic carefully at some point in time and knew what I just outlined above. From that perspective, he never came out and taught against it like he did a great many other "false doctrines" that infiltrated the church. While that isn't absolute proof that he affirmatively believed the teaching, it is very congruent with what his son-in-law recounts above.
There are hints that Mormon luminary Hugh Nibley privately harbored at least some belief in Adam-God teachings. In a 1980 address given at BYU titled “Before Adam,” he did not deny the existence of pre-Adamic humanoids,42 but stated that Adam’s descendants “are the sons of Adam, who also qualify as sons of God, Adam himself being a son of God.” Nibley also hints at Adam and Eve having been transplanted from another planet, adding, “Whether former speculation about life on other worlds is now to be upgraded to life from other worlds remains to be seen, but Adam is wonderful enough without that.” More directly addressing Adam-God, Nibley stated: “And one of our biggest stumbling blocks is not knowing how Adam relates to other beings, earthly and heavenly. That is the root of the Adam-God misunderstanding. (Until we care to look into the matter seriously, I will keep my opinions in a low profile.)”43 His statement implies that the Adam-God doctrine may have been misunderstood rather than being out-and-out false. He also implies some privately held beliefs on the matter.
Adam-God is one of the levels of meanings of the symbology of "Adam&Eve". Adam and Eve are each of us, as we hear and are instructed to understand in the Temple - we should consider ourselves each, respectively, as Adam and Even as we leave "Creation" and go into the symbolic Garden of Eden. We are ONLY doing that which our Gods did before us. They were us, we are potentially them. IF we progress to their level, to start a NEW WORLD, we'll likewise do as God did and become an "Adam" to start the physical procreative process on an/the earth as they did.
It was taught openly in the LDS Church for over 40 years. Over 100 Conference talks on it from varying General Authorities. It was a big part of the Lecture at the Veil for a time. And, it explains MUCH without going into painstaking detail because even with this somewhat small revealment, it opens up numerous other vistas beyond the "'baby stories" most people hear about mankind's past history.
I appreciate this teaching on Adam-God. I'm interested in hearing about your Jehovah study that you mentioned. Yes, I do have the book too, at least the older version. Is the 2023 version very different?
Thank you - I'll be covering that soon but it is both in the original book and in the 2023 revision. The recent revision only has a sum total of about 5 new pages of quotes gathered over the past 18 years and the only super significant addition: the C50 passage where Joseph clearly teaches AG teachings. I also edited quite a bit of my commentary but not too much.
Good commentary. Great that you are looking into ALL of the statements and showing and pointing out the FORREST vs. just some of the trees.
Titles and Offices helps people see/understand more! But, there is something that is even more simple, more basic, which opens up ones mind as to HOW it all is, comes to be, th Great Grand Unifying Theory of it all! How to understand it all. And explains pretty much everything. Which Joseph taught near the end of his life. Things which the LDS Church would reject, as well as almost all Mormon Fundamentalists.
Theogeny. The true Generations of the Gods. True true generation of EACH God.
Here's a good foundation of it as an intro. In the end, it is all simply Father to Son, who becomes a Father, etc. I have a father, and a grandfather, and a great grandfather, etc. backwards, and I also have a son, and grandsons, etc. going further. We are organizing ourselves in the exact same pattern, and through the Law of Adoption, will be organized into the Geneology of the Gods. All of us will need to become Holy Ghosts before becoming Christs, and we will need to become a Christ before we become a Heavenly Father/Father Adam, which we will become before becoming a Creation Jehovah, which is before becoming a Creation Elohim. It is just a hierarchy of Gods after the pattern of Father/Son, etc.
Spiritual procreation, as per Mosiah 5:7, is conversion. Later, as we progress through becoming a Christ, we can become a Physical procreator, proving bodies for our Spiritual Children, conceived as per Mosiah 5:7,
We ALL become Jehovah. We ALL become Sons of God after being sons of God, and all of the scriptures/talks verify this UNIFIED understanding of Godhood, Adam-God, multiple mortalities, movement between Kingdoms of Glory, spiritual and physical progression, justice besides mercy, no "twinkling" of anybody, etc.
Here's the quotes of Joseph's teachings shortly before his death:
Theogeny
Quotes on the progression of Gods
“He [Lorenzo Snow] told me that he heard Joseph Smith tell a man once that he would become a god and reign in glory, but that before that he would have to be crucified as Christ was. That man is still living.” (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889, special collections, University of Utah Library)
“Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world became the eternal God of that world. he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many” (Wilford Woodruff, Jan. 30, 1841, "Book of Revelations," 3-4)
“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Words of Joseph Smith <27 August 1843> page 245)
“Jesus spake in this wise, I do as my Father before me did. [John 5:19] Well, what did the father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to laid down his life and to take it up again.” (Words of Joseph Smith <7 April 1844> page 362)
yea, that is what I meant by post resurrection progression. I have another half dozen quotes on that specific HG > Christ > Adam progression. It was taught more than I initially believed.
Great - Id love to see them - hope you have something I don't have already.
On a similar vein, going into pre-God progression, before being a Holy Ghost there's the offices of Dispensation Head, Patriarch/Prophet, lesser prophets, etc. Baby Resurrections, etc.
Step by step progression, from lesser Kingdoms, to higher Kingdoms. Lesser stations to higher ones.
Yes, pretty much all the same given multiple mortalities/MMP( Multiple Mortal Probations)/Reincarnations, whatever people choose to call it. It still all cones down to progression unto a state of Perfection of the participants which, as Joseph stated, we must ALL go through in order to be exalted as the greats have done - I have the quote somewhere, Id just need to look it up on my lappy.
Here's the foundation of it, taught by Joseph Smith:
Theogeny
Quotes on the progression of Gods
“He [Lorenzo Snow] told me that he heard Joseph Smith tell a man once that he would become a god and reign in glory, but that before that he would have to be crucified as Christ was. That man is still living.” (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889, special collections, University of Utah Library)
“Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world became the eternal God of that world. he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many” (Wilford Woodruff, Jan. 30, 1841, "Book of Revelations," 3-4)
“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Words of Joseph Smith <27 August 1843> page 245)
“Jesus spake in this wise, I do as my Father before me did. [John 5:19] Well, what did the father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to laid down his life and to take it up again.” (Words of Joseph Smith <7 April 1844> page 362)
thanks for helping to better understand all the integral parts to this teaching!
like another poster mentioned, i too have the book but not the 2023 edition, i think i recall u mentioning that there was a supplemental which u had prepared with the latest material for the older edition….. is/was that so?
in a talk i read or heard sometime ago, Nibley made a statement on this teaching, and he well could of made others i’m ignorant of……but it sure led me to believe that he was quite open to the doctrine being legitimate…..would u happen to have any such Nibley quotes on the teaching?
I'm glad the podcast was helpful. I worried that I didn't say things PC enough. I try not to overstate any detail when I write, but sometimes when I speak on a podcast, I'm not quite as careful and though I stand by the strong statements, I normally would try to tone them down a bit so as not to stress anyone who is maybe newer in the gospel and just happened upon my channel.
I addressed the 2023 comment above.
I know the hospice worker who worked with Hugh Nibley. As I recall, he acknowledged to the hospice worker that he believed in AG teachings but still stuck "to the good ship, Zion." The hospice worker is one of my best friends so I trust his account, but don't recall specifics.
I had an acquaintance make a similar statement about another leading LDS scholar who believed in AG teachings but was unwilling to risk his membership and/or scholarship status by saying so but I have not verified that (although I'm personally familiar with the individual) because I have not wanted to put him in an uncomfortable position.
found this in a Sunstone article….it includes the account i had heard before……
Nibley’s son-in-law and biographer Boyd Petersen spoke of this in a 2013 interview. When asked whether Nibley may have privately believed in Adam-God teachings, Petersen replied,
I never heard him say, “I believe in the Adam-God doctrine” . . . I thought, “Why hasn’t he addressed that issue [Adam-God]?” And so I asked him . . . and he said, “Oh, I never think about that.” And he just didn’t want to talk about it, he said, “Well, let me revise that: I don’t talk about that.” . . . in several of his Brigham Young writings [he said] that he felt like Brigham Young was a better theologian than he’s been given credit for. So . . . my gut feeling is that he had very strong sympathies for that theology.
This is a very interesting take on what he said. Personally, I look at it like this: (1) teaching Adam-God teachings in the church gets you in big trouble (I've known several people who can personally testify of this). (2) Those who look into church history carefully absolutely know that this was taught as doctrine, including in the temples. (3) those who study ancient Christianity cannot help but to see parallels to Adam-God teachings in certain texts. Therefore, it's highly unlikely that Hugh Nibley didn't dive into this topic carefully at some point in time and knew what I just outlined above. From that perspective, he never came out and taught against it like he did a great many other "false doctrines" that infiltrated the church. While that isn't absolute proof that he affirmatively believed the teaching, it is very congruent with what his son-in-law recounts above.
There are hints that Mormon luminary Hugh Nibley privately harbored at least some belief in Adam-God teachings. In a 1980 address given at BYU titled “Before Adam,” he did not deny the existence of pre-Adamic humanoids,42 but stated that Adam’s descendants “are the sons of Adam, who also qualify as sons of God, Adam himself being a son of God.” Nibley also hints at Adam and Eve having been transplanted from another planet, adding, “Whether former speculation about life on other worlds is now to be upgraded to life from other worlds remains to be seen, but Adam is wonderful enough without that.” More directly addressing Adam-God, Nibley stated: “And one of our biggest stumbling blocks is not knowing how Adam relates to other beings, earthly and heavenly. That is the root of the Adam-God misunderstanding. (Until we care to look into the matter seriously, I will keep my opinions in a low profile.)”43 His statement implies that the Adam-God doctrine may have been misunderstood rather than being out-and-out false. He also implies some privately held beliefs on the matter.
Adam-God is one of the levels of meanings of the symbology of "Adam&Eve". Adam and Eve are each of us, as we hear and are instructed to understand in the Temple - we should consider ourselves each, respectively, as Adam and Even as we leave "Creation" and go into the symbolic Garden of Eden. We are ONLY doing that which our Gods did before us. They were us, we are potentially them. IF we progress to their level, to start a NEW WORLD, we'll likewise do as God did and become an "Adam" to start the physical procreative process on an/the earth as they did.
It was taught openly in the LDS Church for over 40 years. Over 100 Conference talks on it from varying General Authorities. It was a big part of the Lecture at the Veil for a time. And, it explains MUCH without going into painstaking detail because even with this somewhat small revealment, it opens up numerous other vistas beyond the "'baby stories" most people hear about mankind's past history.
I appreciate this teaching on Adam-God. I'm interested in hearing about your Jehovah study that you mentioned. Yes, I do have the book too, at least the older version. Is the 2023 version very different?
Thank you - I'll be covering that soon but it is both in the original book and in the 2023 revision. The recent revision only has a sum total of about 5 new pages of quotes gathered over the past 18 years and the only super significant addition: the C50 passage where Joseph clearly teaches AG teachings. I also edited quite a bit of my commentary but not too much.
Good commentary. Great that you are looking into ALL of the statements and showing and pointing out the FORREST vs. just some of the trees.
Titles and Offices helps people see/understand more! But, there is something that is even more simple, more basic, which opens up ones mind as to HOW it all is, comes to be, th Great Grand Unifying Theory of it all! How to understand it all. And explains pretty much everything. Which Joseph taught near the end of his life. Things which the LDS Church would reject, as well as almost all Mormon Fundamentalists.
Theogeny. The true Generations of the Gods. True true generation of EACH God.
Are you speaking of the progression of the gods, post resurrection progression through offices, or some other Gnostic flex? :^D
Here's a good foundation of it as an intro. In the end, it is all simply Father to Son, who becomes a Father, etc. I have a father, and a grandfather, and a great grandfather, etc. backwards, and I also have a son, and grandsons, etc. going further. We are organizing ourselves in the exact same pattern, and through the Law of Adoption, will be organized into the Geneology of the Gods. All of us will need to become Holy Ghosts before becoming Christs, and we will need to become a Christ before we become a Heavenly Father/Father Adam, which we will become before becoming a Creation Jehovah, which is before becoming a Creation Elohim. It is just a hierarchy of Gods after the pattern of Father/Son, etc.
Spiritual procreation, as per Mosiah 5:7, is conversion. Later, as we progress through becoming a Christ, we can become a Physical procreator, proving bodies for our Spiritual Children, conceived as per Mosiah 5:7,
We ALL become Jehovah. We ALL become Sons of God after being sons of God, and all of the scriptures/talks verify this UNIFIED understanding of Godhood, Adam-God, multiple mortalities, movement between Kingdoms of Glory, spiritual and physical progression, justice besides mercy, no "twinkling" of anybody, etc.
Here's the quotes of Joseph's teachings shortly before his death:
Theogeny
Quotes on the progression of Gods
“He [Lorenzo Snow] told me that he heard Joseph Smith tell a man once that he would become a god and reign in glory, but that before that he would have to be crucified as Christ was. That man is still living.” (Diary of Orson F. Whitney, 8 June 1889, special collections, University of Utah Library)
“Joseph the Seer taught the following principle that the God & father of our Lord Jesus Christ was once the same as the Son or Holy Ghost but having redeemed a world became the eternal God of that world. he had a son Jesus Christ who redeemed this earth the same as his father had a world which made them equal & the Holy Ghost would do the same in his turn & so would all the Saints who inherited a Celestial glory so their would be Gods many & Lords many” (Wilford Woodruff, Jan. 30, 1841, "Book of Revelations," 3-4)
“The Holy Ghost is now in a state of Probation which if he should perform in righteousness he may pass through the same or a similar course of things that the Son has.” (Words of Joseph Smith <27 August 1843> page 245)
“Jesus spake in this wise, I do as my Father before me did. [John 5:19] Well, what did the father do? Why he went and took a body and went to redeem a world in the flesh and had power to laid down his life and to take it up again.” (Words of Joseph Smith <7 April 1844> page 362)
yea, that is what I meant by post resurrection progression. I have another half dozen quotes on that specific HG > Christ > Adam progression. It was taught more than I initially believed.
Great - Id love to see them - hope you have something I don't have already.
On a similar vein, going into pre-God progression, before being a Holy Ghost there's the offices of Dispensation Head, Patriarch/Prophet, lesser prophets, etc. Baby Resurrections, etc.
Step by step progression, from lesser Kingdoms, to higher Kingdoms. Lesser stations to higher ones.
I’ve only found a couple of quotes implicating dispensation heads - I’ve searched for many years for decent support of this teaching.
Do you mean MMP or a version of it when you use the term “baby resurrection”?
Yes, pretty much all the same given multiple mortalities/MMP( Multiple Mortal Probations)/Reincarnations, whatever people choose to call it. It still all cones down to progression unto a state of Perfection of the participants which, as Joseph stated, we must ALL go through in order to be exalted as the greats have done - I have the quote somewhere, Id just need to look it up on my lappy.